Placing You First Insurance Podcast by CRC Group
The Placing You First Podcast spans a diverse spectrum of insurance industry issues to keep you and your clients informed.
Placing You First Insurance Podcast by CRC Group
Breaking Ground: Introducing Starwind Cannabis
In this conversation with Starwind Cannabis leaders Tony McIntosh and Eric Morrison, we unpack why traditional insurance approaches fall short for cannabis operations. From navigating the complex regulatory framework to addressing distinctive risk profiles like high-value crops and cash-heavy transactions, cannabis businesses face challenges that standard BOPs simply weren't designed to handle. The discussion tackles persistent misconceptions head-on and reveals how proper risk management and specialized broker knowledge can make this growing field both accessible and rewarding. We also explore what sets leading cannabis insurance programs apart. Whether you're already working with cannabis clients or considering this expanding opportunity, this episode provides practical insights from industry veterans who understand both insurance fundamentals and the unique demands of the cannabis marketplace. Discover how specialized knowledge can help you navigate this complex field with confidence.
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Welcome back to the Placing you First podcast, the CRC Group podcast that puts the spotlight on hot topics in specialty insurance. I'm Amanda, joined by my co-host, Scott Gordon, and today we're talking about one of the fastest growing and most complex areas in our industry insuring the cannabis industry.
Scott Gordon:Today we're joined by two leaders helping to shape the future of this space Tony McIntosh, president of the newly launched Starwind Cannabis Program, and Eric Morrison, evp of Starwind Cannabis. This is the Placing you First podcast from CRC Group. This podcast features news and insights from a vast knowledge base of over 5,100 associates.
Amanda Knight:Who write more than $35 billion in premium annually. Plus, we give you the latest information on what's happening at CRC this this.
Tony McIntosh:This is the Placing you First podcast and now the hosts of the podcast Amanda Knight and Scott Gordon.
Scott Gordon:Now, whether you're already placing cannabis risk or just starting to explore the opportunity. This episode is going to be packed with insights for you. But before we jump in, amanda, I think we should let everyone warm up with some cannabis trivia, since they're new to the podcast, with a little something that we did last time called the pot quiz. Oh boy.
Amanda Knight:It says learning can't be fun.
Scott Gordon:We're not grading. We're not grading anyone. Okay, so to lead off. And this is a mixture of pop culture and scientific prowess, so you should have a good chance at scoring a couple of points. Oh, there are no points. Never mind, I'm glad we have. Eric I know this is just for fun, so this is one of the questions I came up with myself. This Ben and Jerry's ice cream flavor shares the same name as a 1998 stoner comedy starring Dave Chappelle.
Amanda Knight:I don't know the answer to this one, so I fail, I guess.
Scott Gordon:The answer is there's no takers. It's half-baked. They have a flavor name Half-baked, they have a flavor name Half-baked Jeez. That's just extremely obvious it's half cookie dough and half brownie dough. Considering I'm a vanilla ice cream guy oh, it's one of their better ones. Okay, and then our next question.
Amanda Knight:Well, we're doing good, so zero for one we're all at zero.
Scott Gordon:We all feel Okay. This is interesting. Which iconic cannabis strain, celebrated for its vibrant effects and golden appearance, is often dubbed the queen of cannabis? I did not know this, Amanda.
Tony McIntosh:I definitely don't know this Blue Dream. It is Acapulco Gold. Is acapulco gold, acapulco gold.
Scott Gordon:That's like a og strain, like a oh like way back from what I hear, right right from what they came from, the kids tell us we're over two.
Tony McIntosh:We're doing good okay, this one.
Scott Gordon:Uh, is this one might be a little difficult. Smoke on the Water is the name of the fictional medical marijuana shop in which popular video game.
Tony McIntosh:Oh boy. Now is this a Nintendo game. You take the cartridge out and blow on it and put it back in, Because I don't remember that.
Scott Gordon:No, it's not a Nintendo game. I don't think they let pot references go through, but this is Grand Theft Auto. Grand Theft Auto smoke on the water.
Tony McIntosh:Boy. At least I got some verbiage to go back and talk to my kids about, you know.
Scott Gordon:Yeah, here's some good ones. Which US state was the first to legalize recreational marijuana? Colorado, it is Colorado. They passed Amendment 64 in 2012 alongside Washington State. Colorado, it is Colorado. They passed Amendment 64 in 2012 alongside Washington State. Right? Hey, we're doing better here. We go A little better on the board.
Amanda Knight:I want to put in a disclaimer here that they are getting the questions right that actually matter.
Scott Gordon:I know the final question. The cannabis plant has two primary species that are wildly cultivated, that are widely cultivated, I'm sorry, what are they called?
Amanda Knight:Two species that are widely cultivated.
Eric Morrison:Indica and sativa.
Scott Gordon:Yes, that is correct. The cannabis plant has two primary species.
Amanda Knight:See, you guys got the hard ones right.
Scott Gordon:I would say that if this was a college class, you'd probably pass.
Tony McIntosh:Hey, we're getting there. We're warming up.
Eric Morrison:Well, what do they say? Seas, get degrees, right, that's right, maybe.
Scott Gordon:Well, okay, now that we've warmed you guys up, let's dive into the big picture. What makes the cannabis industry marketplace different from other lines that agents may be used to? I'll jump in here. The cannabis insurance market's a unique animal, so, unlike traditional industries, like other lines that agents may be used to.
Tony McIntosh:I'll jump in here. You know the cannabis insurance market's a unique animal. So, unlike traditional industries like retail or real estate, cannabis operates in a framework of state regulations with the constant legality overhang, and so this means carriers and agents need to be hyper-specialized to navigate risks, fincen requirements, compliance and the stigma that kind of still lingers. And so I'd say that the risk profile is also distinct. You can think high-value crops, cash-heavy operations, ownership structures and supply chain complexity from seed to sale. So standard BOP-type policies just don't cut it. So standard BOP-type policies just don't cut it. And that's why we have tailored coverage to fit the industry's specific needs, like full market value on crop or cargo cover, while product or cash is moving around, and product liability as examples. And so I really love how different it is in that it's fast-paced, so it's evolving. It's an industry that requires brokers to stay ahead of the curve, and those brokers that present high quality data and narratives on operations and what the insured truly needs are the ones that certainly win a lot easier, at least with us.
Eric Morrison:Yeah, yeah, I mean, you nailed it, tony. I mean, I think one of the unique things that I've found in this industry is it's extremely fast paced. So if you like the same thing every day, you're in the wrong business. It's something different every day. It's constantly evolving. Evolving. It's exciting because you're not looking at the same things over and over again. So it is unique in that regard where a cannabis operation just isn't a cannabis operation. They're all different, even though they may be doing the same things. So it's pretty cool to be involved in something from the ground up, like we have been.
Amanda Knight:Well, with that in mind, what are maybe the top three things if you could boil it down to three that you would want any retail agent to absolutely understand, about placing cannabis risks in today's market?
Eric Morrison:I would say knowing your customer, knowing the exposures, knowing the risk, knowing what type of operations they're doing, because these guys typically will start out doing one thing and then evolve and grow and no pun intended, but Um, they um have related entities that that will um pop up that you may not be aware of Um.
Eric Morrison:So I I think a lot of it is um just knowing your customer and knowing what type of risk management practices they they have in place Um.
Eric Morrison:And then the second thing I think would be that knowing the forms that are out there in terms of insurance, the ISO-based forms versus proprietary manuscript endorsements that are out there, because ISO didn't really have a product for this industry, not yet they're coming out with some forms and some rates and compiling data and whatnot.
Eric Morrison:But um, knowing the difference between ISO based and proprietary forms, um and then really getting into the details and understanding those forms Um, because within those forms that kind of leads me to the third thing are the warranties, terms, conditions, exclusions, those sort of things are key to understand and be able to speak intelligently about what is required of the operator in order to trigger coverage or make sure the policy responds in the way that it's intended to. So I think those three things are probably the most important, at least from an underwriting perspective. And then just getting out there and being able to speak to these guys, because you know, everybody likes to talk about what they do for a living and these guys are no different. So understand them, understand what they're doing and, yeah, I'd say that's top three. Tony, I missed anything.
Tony McIntosh:No, I don't think so. I think to return the you nailed it line, you nailed it, buddy. But I'll frame it slightly differently. I'd say one prioritize risk management, so clients need to show strong security and compliance to get competitive rates. Two, don't assume that those standard policies work, and so cannabis needs bespoke solutions, you know, kind of like our in the marine for transport, eric, or how we can help employers with work comp and EPLI as examples. And then three to your point is staying educated, and so, as the market's changing fast, there's new risks like cyber, threats to POS systems and manufacturing infrastructure. So brokers who really niche themselves and keep learning about exposures and risk transfer vehicles, in my opinion, will stand out and build a lot of trust with clients and quickly Right.
Scott Gordon:And you mentioned, you know this is a really quickly evolving field. So what sort of misconceptions do you think agents or clients have about cannabis coverage?
Tony McIntosh:I think one big misconception is that cannabis insurance is and I'll keep hitting on the head is just like any other business insurance. It's not. So some clients may think that a standard BOP will cover their grow operation or dispensary, as an example, but those policies rarely account for cannabis specific risks, like goods and process or product liability and withdrawal expense. So, um, you know that, uh, certainly is one misnomer. I think another misconception is that coverage is unaffordable. Yes, premiums can be higher due to the risk profile, but with proper risk management, along with, again, a detailed application or narrative that clearly defines what those operations are, can really go a long way. And having a specialized broker or advisor that knows coverage like property and casualty, work, comp, management, liability, like DNO, epl, fiduciary and cyber, I think those premiums and really budgeting year over year become very manageable. And lastly, I'd say that some agents assume that this market's too risky to enter, but with the right expertise or specialization, it's a huge opportunity to build a niche practice.
Eric Morrison:I think another misconception of something that goes on out there is that every program's the same. They're all the same, they all have the same forms, they all have the same rates. It's not a one-size-fits-all. Everybody's got their forms that are, you know, in the early beginning phases of this industry, which I started back in 2017. There were very few programs out there and a lot of it was cookie cutter much of the same thing over and over again in terms of forms, rates, all that stuff. But it's matured a lot, it's come a long way, and I think a huge misconception is that all the programs are alike and that's just simply not the case. I mean, our program is very different than any others out there, which is why we kind of came to Starwind to start this whole thing.
Amanda Knight:It's a good segue, Scott.
Scott Gordon:Yeah, you guys are clearly well-versed specialists, which explains why you're over at Starwind Cannabis running things. What inspired the launch specifically of Starwind Cannabis and why now?
Eric Morrison:Yeah, I'll continue on that path. I think it's still a very underserved market. As many programs and carriers and partners that are out there willing to offer coverage. There's still some friction and brain damage going on out there. For these retailers it's difficult to get this stuff kind of pushed through sometimes, and we kind of came about to offer a helping hand, in that we want to make sure we are treating our customers as we'd want to be treated. So I think that's the main reason that we kind of came around is to offer some stability. And, uh, in an underserved market because it tends to be all over the place from carrier to carrier or mgu to mgu, they're like I said, they're all very different and, um, not to quote forrest gump, but it's like a box of chocolates you don't really ever see what you're going to get from program to program and, truthfully, from submission to submission. So I think there's a huge opportunity for us here, which is why we kind of came about.
Tony McIntosh:Yeah, I think I'll book in that too, with a couple other points, in that, you know, the cannabis industry's growth is undeniable, right? I mean sales hit $24 billion in 2021 and are projected to reach $70 billion in just a few years. So, to Eric's point, the insurance marketplace hasn't kept pace with that, and so they're leaving gaps for businesses that are needing reliable coverage, and we're hoping to kind of serve up what our knowledge is of this business and the appropriate coverages that will kind of shelter these operations as they are, you know, from a new venture status through their growth stages of their lives as a company, and I think Starwind saw a chance primarily to bring you know two extremely good looking amazing cannabis leaders into the fold.
Tony McIntosh:Of course, Both of which couldn't be here today, by the way, Just kidding. But in all seriousness, I think Starwind saw a chance to lead with a program to Eric's point that's innovative, that's broker-focused and built for the long haul. And why, now, you ask? I think the timing's perfect. Legalization is expanding, stigma's fading and brokers are hungry for specialized solutions, with the marketplace friction that they're up against, which Eric was hitting on in his points. And so we launched in Q1 of 2025 to bring stability to the marketplace and then to meet that demand head on.
Amanda Knight:So if we wanted to be a little more specific or detailed about it, what specifically do you feel like is most appealing? Or set Starwind Cannabis apart, that kind of grabs agents' attention or should grab their attention.
Eric Morrison:Well, I'll lead on that one too. Well, I'll lead on that one too. Ease of doing business that is something we take very seriously. It is not our job to say no. It's our job to find a way to make to work for our partners on the carrier side. It's got to work for the broker, it's got to work for the client.
Eric Morrison:Um, and I think a lot of times there's some resistance and that, well, it doesn't fit this box. Well, if you're in for the box, fitting underwriting guidelines or underwriting, this is not your industry, because it's it's one big gray area and you know. So we are here to find solutions, make it work and make, truthfully make the broker part of the process because, like Tony he knows I say this all the time it's like I don't want to know what we're doing right, I want to know what we're doing wrong, because that's where we can improve things for them, and so we want them to be a part of that process and included, because that's what we're ultimately here to do is to help them. So, Tony, you can feel free to add. Or if I missed something, no, I think you're hitting that again right on the head.
Tony McIntosh:Let's keep that theme going. We're basically focused on eliminating marketplace friction and providing stability out there. As you've been hearing this over and over again in our points We've tackled some of those pain points like crop table valuations and blanket limits on products, things like offering market value crop coverage or no MLIs on BI and having flexible policy structure across multiple operations. But what we're really committed to is our service standard. To Eric's point, there's just a lot of friction and there's a lot of trenching out there where it becomes very difficult for agents just to kind of pop up and shoot with their hard hats on, as opposed to running to trench to trench, to trench to trench to kind of do that. So our team is really bringing decades of niche experience to the table here. We're not just selling policies, we're building partnerships. So our select distribution partners get direct access to us, get responsive service and they get a program that we feel is designed to really serve well.
Scott Gordon:Can you walk us through the types of coverage offered and what kind of risks this program is built to handle?
Tony McIntosh:You know, starwind Cannabis really covers the full supply chain, scott, so cultivators, manufacturers, distributors, dispensaries and even LROs. So our core coverages include property GL. That's a separate and distinct form from our product liability form. We have wonderful capabilities in cargo per conveyance. We can help with workers comp and have specialized options like management liabilities so think DNO, EPL and fiduciary, as mentioned before and we've got cyber liability solutions too to cover this growing risk for operators too, to cover this growing risk for operators.
Amanda Knight:With that in mind, I mean you guys have a lot on the go. This is a growing area of interest, a growing area of business. What are you guys most excited about as Darwin Cannabis gains traction?
Eric Morrison:I would say, forming the long-term partnerships with the people in this industry. I think that is um is what I'm most excited about, cause, you know, while we're um, you know, in the insurance industry, what we ultimately are out there selling is is trust, and you know we want to do business with people that we know like and trust and um it's, you know, while it's the business that kind of brings us all together, it's the relationships that endure it. So ultimately we're in the relationship business and those relationships are meaningful to us and we appreciate um all of them. That's what gets me going is helping people and helping our brokers find solutions for their clients, just like I mean, that's what we're here to do.
Tony McIntosh:I'd say for me it's about impact, so we aim to change how brokers and clients see this marketplace, so we're really excited to see our program empower brokers to win more business and to help these cannabis operators thrive in what we've described as a pretty challenging and tough insurance environment. Plus, with our team's drive, we're just getting started, so the chance to serve the space and innovate with technology tools or new coverage areas is incredibly rewarding to us.
Amanda Knight:We look forward to watching you guys grow.
Scott Gordon:Is there anything else you guys want to touch on before we get to the fun stuff?
Eric Morrison:No more quizzes right.
Tony McIntosh:No more challenging quizzes about video games. I'm sorry.
Scott Gordon:I'm sorry they won't be that challenging, but we want to get to know you guys. I mean you know, we know that you guys are very well versed in what you do.
Tony McIntosh:Yeah, we've been entrenched in this business for a long time, Scott. Both Eric and I are third-generation insurance nerds, so we were born in this business. We didn't get the opportunity to do anything other than insurance. It's like the family's legacy, just gently mocked all of our early ambitions to do anything other than insurance. Just kind of gently laughed in the corner like don't worry, they'll be back. And sure enough we've been in this beautiful business for forever.
Scott Gordon:Well, and we appreciate you guys giving us the goods, so to speak. But now we want to get to know you a little bit with something that Amanda and I like to call rapid fire, which you just answer off the top of your head. No right, no wrong. We just want to get to know you. The first question in Rapid Fire what food do you absolutely refuse to eat?
Tony McIntosh:I'll say green beans. You know, I used to hide them in my milk as a kid and I actually thought my parents never knew. You know, like now that I have kids, I understand how much they were probably laughing their butts off when they did the dishes 100%.
Amanda Knight:But, points for creativity I wouldn't have thought of that?
Tony McIntosh:Yeah, I thought so too.
Eric Morrison:I would have to go with tapioca pudding. It's a texture thing.
Amanda Knight:I can see that Can't do it. I will eat both of those things just for see that Can't do it. I will eat both of those things just for the record, doesn't bother me.
Scott Gordon:Just for the record, I won't eat either one. Just for the record. Okay, so it's summertime, the kids are out of school. What is your favorite summer travel destination, with or without kids?
Tony McIntosh:For me it's the mountains, I think you know, the fresh air, the lakes, the rivers, the hikes, the little cell signal, you know, do you right? Yeah?
Eric Morrison:I'd have to go the opposite, because Tony gets the beach and he gets the sun 24 seven, being in San Clemente. So you know, I conversely live in Kansas city where there is no beach, no mountains. I conversely live in Kansas City where there is no beach, no mountains, no nothing. So I will take either one of those beach mountain anywhere other than where it's hot, humid and flat.
Scott Gordon:That's where I'm at Rib joints, yeah.
Amanda Knight:I lived in Kansas City for three years. I feel your pain. I remember those days. Yeah, alabama, you can relate, it's flat and windy.
Scott Gordon:Yeah Boy, those flat can relate. It's flat and windy. Yeah boy, those flat states. Though it's a long drive through your state, Eric, I'll just tell you that that's right. Okay, our third and final question what is your go-to pump-up song before a big meeting or an epic workout, or something?
Tony McIntosh:Eye of the Tiger. It never fails to get me going and it's about rising up to the moment. You know it's on the quick playlist.
Amanda Knight:There you go.
Eric Morrison:I'll go with James Brown. Get up off of that thing. Yeah, that one always. You can't have a bad day if you listen to that.
Amanda Knight:Perfect, both classic choices. Well, thank you both so much, tony and Eric, for joining us.
Tony McIntosh:Thank you, really appreciate the time.
Amanda Knight:Thank you so much for breaking down the cannabis market in a clear, practical way that we can all appreciate. If you would like to learn more about the Starwind Cannabis Program, you can check out the link in the show notes Scott will be sure to put it there or visit starwindcannabiscom to learn more. Don't forget to follow Placing you First on your favorite podcast platform so that you never miss an episode. We'll see you next time.
Tony McIntosh:Thank you all.
